Learning from Kurtzman part 1: How Harvey celped create Punk magazine

This is the first of a two-part feature about Harvey’s days at the School of Visual Arts, where he taught from 1974 to 1990, as recalled by SVA students. the second feature will include Mark Newgarden, Tom Sito, Mike Carlin, Bob Fingerman, and Dan Riba. Here’s my interview with John Holmstrom, who was instrumental in bringing both Harvey and Will Eisner to SVA in the first place.

Best known for illustrating record covers for the Ramones’ classic albums Rocket To Russia and Road to Ruin, John also has done artwork for The Rolling Stones, Blondie, and dozens of punk rock musicians.

In 1975, just over a year after taking cartoon/comic strip classes at the School of Visual Arts, John created the landmark, legendary, highly influential Punk magazine, which the Village Voice precisely described as “the zeitgeist of a new generation”.

John saw Punk as the Mad Magazine of rock ’n’ roll, at one point it operating out of the same building as EC Comics: 225 Lafayette Street. It was alive with comics from the very first issue, which was entirely hand-lettered. John rendered his cover story, a feature on Lou Reed, as a strip, and his first interview question was “Do you like comics?”

John wanted to harness the youthful energy and rebelliousness of midcentury America, when parents and senate committees vilified and attacked both comic books and rock ’n’ roll for causing juvenile delinquency. John was also influenced by the fumetti in the European comics Harvey brought to class, and created photo-comics like “Nick Detroit,” featuring underground celebrities like Debbie Harry and David Byrne.

John is currently working on reviving Punk, almost 50 years after its initial launch.

MICHAEL DOOLEY: Why did you register for SVA?

JOHN HOLMSTROM: I wrote a letter to Marvel Comics in the 1960s – when I was buying every Marvel comic book from Fantastic Four to Rawhide Kid – and asked where I could take classes in how to draw comic strips. It must have been Fabulous Flo Steinberg who wrote back and suggested SVA. I got to meet Flo once and yes, she was fabulous!

However, once I enrolled, several students complained that SVA wasn’t offering any comic book art classes, so we signed a petition, which I delivered to SVA founder Silas Rhodes. At the top of the list were Will Eisner and Harvey Kurtzman. Silas somehow talked both of them into becoming teachers, so I took advantage of the situation: never missed a minute of class, churned out as much work as possible, took extra life drawing classes, the works.

Most of the students took Harvey’s class as an easy credit, but I saw it as my big break into the comics biz. And it was!

How did you and other students establish cartooning classes?

It was an effort by the “Cartoon Club,” which was run by Tom Gill, an instructor who illustrated The Lone Ranger newspaper comic strip. David Pomerantz and Brian Hall did most of the work gathering all the signatures. I didn’t have anything to do with writing the petition. I didn’t even know who Will Eisner was back then!

I was too busy working to hang out there, and I was so cynical, I doubted the school would do anything for us. I had an internship at a place called Charas, which was building geodesic domes, and where I created an educational comic book called Dome Land, which was printed right before my taking the courses with Harvey and Will. I gave out a copy of it to everyone in class, if they were smart they would have held onto their copy, since it sells for over $1,000 nowadays.

The list also included Will Eisner, Gil Kane, Neal Adams, Mort Drucker, and Bob Crumb.

Really? R. Crumb was on the list? Ha ha! That would have been a disaster!

I remember Mort Drucker being on the list. I was like: “I hope they don’t hire him, I hate newspaper comics.”

As I mentioned, David and Brian did most of the heavy lifting for the petition, but they were nervous about delivering it to Silas. Me? Hey, that guy noticed me right away. I hate to brag, but Silas could tell I was a contender right away. He taught a class to all first year students. I forget what it was called.

The first week of classes, Silas asked everyone to write a letter about why I was going to SVA in and what I expected to get out of the experience, etc. He was so impressed by my letter that he read it out loud the next week. I had a weird ability to write stuff that moved people, back then.

Harvey also asked everyone to write a similar letter after his first class, and what I had to say got his attention. It convinced Harvey right away that I would make it in the publishing business. I was very driven to succeed.

I don’t think John Laney had anything to do with the Cartoon Club. As I remember, he took the Will Eisner class without being a full-time student. He was very talented, way ahead of the rest of us who were still trying to learn how to draw professional artwork. He ended up becoming Will Eisner’s assistant on The Spirit when Warren was doing the reprint editions. John did a great job copying Will’s style. We both worked for Will after 1974. He would create comics as a professional artist, but as an intern I would just sweep floors, maybe draw some bricks for the background in an illustration. I think Will hired me as a favor, and help keep me alive after I left SVA. His receptionist also liked me and took care of me. Hey! Be nice to people, it pays off!

I was more influenced by Harvey than Will. I gave up on working for Marvel after taking Harvey’s classes. A field trip to Marvel’s offices was totally depressing. The comic book illustrators I met at Creation Conventions hated working for them. Magazines paid much better and gave you more creative freedom! So I became a magazine cartoonist instead of a comic book guy.

As an aside, Bob Andelman wrote in “A Spirited Life” that, in an alternate recounting, Will claims that Silas invited him to teach and “later the next semester, Eisner said he nominated Harvey Kurtzman to join the faculty”. Is there any truth to Will’s claiming credit?

No, it was the same semester, Someone else – I forget who – told me that Harvey taught at SVA earlier, in the 1960s. I was never able to do the research to find out if this is true.

But yes, Will often took credit for talking Harvey into it. I doubt Harvey would have taken the assignment if not for Will pushing him into it. Harvey was often like: “Will was always there before me, I was a few years behind him.” Those two guys had mad respect for each other. It was a nice thing to see and learn from.

Will was very enthusiastic about teaching and was a hard taskmaster. Harvey’s classes were fun, and I ended up learning more about the nuts and bolts of being a cartoonist from him. For instance, he hired guest artist every other week or so. They would do a drawing in front of us and then we’d get to do a Q&A with them.

I still have the drawing Jack Davis did for the class. I was the first person in Harvey’s class to be a pain in the ass like that. And of course I still have it. He’s one of the most amazing people I ever met, but that’s true with most of his guest artists.

Harvey had no formal training as an instructor; why do you think he decided to teach?

Well, this is true of all instructors at SVA: they weren’t accredited “teachers,” they were working professionals. I think he needed the extra income. He had a family to support. And I think he liked taking a break from “Little Annie Fanny,” and hanging out with younger cartoonists.

In the NFL, they have the “coaching tree”: how many assistant coaches under coaches become successful head coaches, right? Well, I think Harvey’s “cartoonist tree” is probably longer than Will’s, although they would both be impressive. Not so much his assistants but people who he helped develop: R. Crumb, Gilbert Shelton, Terry Gilliam, and everyone at Mad! Even Gloria Steinem! With Will it was Mike Ploog, Jules Feiffer, Joe Kubert, Jack Cole, Wally Wood.

Those two guys must have been the two biggest influences on comic books and cartooning in the 20th Century. And I am very proud to be in their trees!

What was Harvey’s approach to teaching?

I think he winged it, which was why he brought in so many guest artists.

The classes I remember most were the first, when he showed a slideshow of his career, and mentioned “Lucky Fights it Through,” his first published comic – he said at the time – and how it was about Lucky contracting syphilis.

Then there was one where he went over different drawing styles: cross- hatching, stipple, etc. He called black “The Ultimate Weapon!” And explained how spotting black areas in a drawing were such an important part of a composition.

But a lot of what I learned from him was just about professionalism and working in the industry. Back in the 20th Century, how to break into the publishing business was a mystery. He helped demystify it.

How comfortable was Harvey during his first day, and how did you see him evolve during your two semesters with him?

The thing I remember vividly was when Batton Lash and I were sitting together – as usual – waiting for “The Great One” to arrive. Then Harvey walked in the door. As soon as he entered he tripped and dropped everything on the floor. It was a slapstick moment! Bat said, “Well, that’s Harvey!” And so there was always this loose, “whatever” attitude there.

The big evolution between Harvey’s first and second semesters involved me, unfortunately: One week, the assignment Harvey gave to us was: “Shock me! Do something that offends me! Go all the way!” Right up my alley, right? I’ve always enjoyed pissing people off with politically-incorrect stuff. So I did a homophobic comic strip; half the school was gay back in the day. And yes, it was shocking. Disgusting. Horrific. Terrible.

Of course, Harvey liked it so much he wanted to publish it on the front cover of his first SVA student publication. A powerful “director” at SVA refused to allow it to be printed. “Too offensive!” Well, Harvey put his job on the line: “Print this or else I quit!” I was summoned to the meeting but was never allowed inside. Instead, I sat outside the office and heard the raised voices. It was crazy! I never thought this offensive comic strip would be published or I wouldn’t have drawn it in the first place. But fuck, the greatest of all times liked it so much that he put his job on the line? That was an insane moment for me.

The next time a student publication was produced by the class, we were told to print 50 copies of a page or two at a local print shop. Then we collated and stapled all of the pages together. From then on, Harvey published student work outside of the authority of the School of Visual Arts.

As a result of it all, I wasn’t able to get a scholarship or any financial aid, and was forced to drop out of SVA. It was an interesting experience: A lesson in censorship, independent media, and political correctness.

What was the class's general atmosphere?

Harvey’s classes were always fun and people got along with each other. Many of the art classes at SVA were miserable. Other students would critique your artwork after you tacked your drawing on the wall. It was brutal. You had very judgmental, severe critics tear your beloved drawing to little pieces! But Harvey’s classes were the best. No judgements. Always positive.

The only negative incident I remember involved the only woman brave enough to attend his classes. Back in the day, not many women wanted to work in comics. I’m very glad to see the situation has changed since then. She was very attractive, and even had a side gig appearing in TV commercials. Harvey did a short demonstration about drawing the female breast. Now, you gotta remember that back in the 1970s, the biggest market for cartoon panels and comic strips were the “Sophisticates”, a.k.a. men’s magazines. Harvey’s main income source was Playboy: I heard he was making $20,000 a year working for Hefner. Not exactly big bucks back then, especially since Harvey had four kids and a wife to support, but those magazines sold like hotcakes and paid top dollar for cartoons: $600 a page. $6,000 in today’s value. And Hugh Hefner used to redraw all of the female breasts back then. He was a frustrated cartoonist. And had a breast fetish, I guess. So how a cartoonist drew boobs was kind of important, right? Well, this young lady was so offended by the class that she dropped out. She was an ardent feminist, but I guess she forgot that Gloria Steinem worked as Harvey’s assistant at Help! Magazine, right? Or she didn’t care. But it was a lesson on how politics collided with art.

In what ways did he discuss his own work?

Harvey was usually self-deprecating about his own contributions and gave credit to other people, but I seem to remember that he was very proud of stuff like “Hey! Look!” and those early Mads.

How would you compare him to other faculty who were there at the time?

Well, you’re asking the wrong guy here. I was just totally entranced getting to work with The GOAT: Greatest Of All Time. Those early Mad paperbacks – Utterly Mad, The Mad Reader, Inside Mad, etc. – were my bibles as a kid, and still to this day. I have the four-volume set of the Russ Cochran books, they sit at first place on my bookshelf of my favorite books, and are my most precious possessions. They were such an influence on me. So I treasured every moment I got to spend with The Greatest.

Some of the other instructors were good, and I learned a lot about art, painting, drawing, color, etc. All of this knowledge helped me so much when putting together Punk magazine. I like to think Punk looked more original and professional – and underground – than others punk zines thanks to everything I learned about publishing from SVA, Will, and Harvey.

Which of his guest speakers were the most memorable, and why?

Like I said, Jack Davis. He was definitely “The Fastest Draw In The West.” He was routinely pulling in $15,000 per illustration back then: movie posters, Raid bug spray TV commercials, movie posters, you name it. Batton and I were blown away by these numbers, like: “Wow! Maybe we can make some money at this after all?”

Jack described a typical meeting at Time magazine back then. He prefaced it by saying: “I waited for 20 years to do my first magazine cover for a national magazine, and then when they asked me to do one, I had one day to produce it!”

Then he described the process: He would sit in a meeting with a bunch of editors and art directors, who would describe the cover concept. You know: “Nixon’s Detente With Russia” or “Who Is Jimmy Carter?” Jack would then visit a side room, and within 20 minutes he’d have a dozen drawings done. Twenty minutes to produce 12 drawings!!!

That’s what I learned from Jack Davis: To be successful, you have to be able to deliver an art job quickly and efficiently.

So it was crazy that after his artist talk, he drew a caricature of every single student! Man, he was so fast. And what a generous act he performed. When he did mine he said something like: “You’re a greedy little bastard: You already have the sketch. I did, and now you’re getting a free caricature as well!” He wasn’t that harsh, but he delivered that message all right. But it was all in good fun. Jack was a Southern Gentleman. And being a greedy bastard, I learned from Jack Davis that you could be a nice person and still be super-successful.

What other artists did you learn about in his class?

At the time, Bill Griffith and Art Spiegelman were publishing Arcade magazine. They did a class, and I think I was the only person in Harvey’s class who was deeply influenced by underground comix, so I was very interested in what they had to say.

Afterwards, I started a correspondence with Bill Griffith, who encouraged me to join the “Cartoonist Co-op,” where comic book artists would put up a few hundred bucks and join other cartoonists to get a discount from their publisher. Although I never was able to draw an entire comic book back

then – I’m too slow at drawing to churn it out like Jack Davis – the idea of self-publishing influenced me when it came to publishing Punk magazine. It was a freeing concept: fuck Marvel and DC Comics, just “Do It Yourself”,

So the Zippy cartoonist had an influence on the whole punk rock D.I.Y. movement. But when I met him several years ago at an R. Crumb appearance in New York City and introduced myself as the guy who drew the Pinhead for the Ramones he was not very happy to meet me. I got the impression that he thought I ripped off his artwork for the “Rocket To Russia” back cover art, with a Pinhead riding a rocket to Moscow like the classic scene from in Stanley Kubrick’s Dr. Strangelove film. Hey, both the Ramones and Griffy were also influenced by Tod Browning’s Freaks film, so suck it up dude! As Will Eisner always told me, “You can’t copyright an idea.” So I was disappointed at the meeting. I hope that someday Griffy can understand: it was a tribute! Not a rip-off.

How did Harvey help you get work?

Harvey was a conduit for cartooning back then: A lot of people would contact him and ask: “Hey, can you do – fill in the blank – for us?” I get this a lot nowadays, and I’m always like: “I’m too busy, but contact so-and-so.”

I did a lot of work for Harvey back then. He did everything to get my career on track after I had to drop out of school, especially since he encouraged me to do so and thought I was more than ready to work as a professional.

Around the same time, Harvey set up an interview for me with Bob Stine ≠ later of Goosebumps – who created and edited a humor magazine for teens, published by Scholastic: Bananas, where i worked from 1975 until 1984 and created my “Joe” comic strip.

Also around that time I also worked on an “Annie Fanny” strip, tracing Harvey’s line drawings to Bristol boards for Will Elder, but I failed the grade. Wasn’t ready. I also did some lettering for a start-up newspaper called The

Funny Pages, creating word balloons that were translated from French to English. It was an exciting concept: finally, some of the European comics by Gotlib and other great French cartoonists might appear in the USA! But the plug was pulled as they went under so they never printed the issue.

Oddly enough, the last time he tried to help my career, I was introduced to a guy who was putting together a Woody Allen newspaper comic strip. This was set up to be a huge success: it was pre-sold to over 600 newspapers! I would have free room and board! And get paid $20,000 a year on top of it! That was a huge amount of money back then!

Unfortunately, the first issue of Punk had just been printed and I was convinced that it would be a huge success, and didn’t think I could juggle the two projects. I often wonder how my life would be different had I taken the offer and worked on both. On the other hand, I have always hated Woody Allen’s brand of humor and would have been totally miserable working on a newspaper strip that attempted to recreate his brand of humor. And sure enough, the strip failed after a few years... like Punk magazine!

Looking back, I think I made the right decision. You gotta do what you wanna do as a creator. The worst thing is to be a slave to an alien culture. If I had to give anyone advice, I would say “follow your passion and don’t let anything stop you.” Punk rock was and still is my passion. My life has had a lot of ups and downs, but the experiences I lived in the world of rock ’n’ roll are something that are worth so much more than money.

What was your most important takeaway from Harvey's class?

My first takeaway from getting to know and work with Harvey is mostly about supporting and promoting new talent, and paying it forward. Hey, I want my own “tree,” especially since my career trajectory imitated both Harvey and Will’s experiences. Like Harvey with Mad, I created a magazine that defined a generation then worked on lesser-known publications. Harvey worked on Help!, Humbug, and Trump, then ended up at an establishment publication, Playboy, for many years, while after Punk –

which defined a generation – I published Comical Funnies and Stop! with people like Peter Bagge and ended up at High Times, the Playboy Magazine of marijuana. Irony abounds. I worked there as executive editor, and eventually worked my way to publisher and president.

Also, I like to think that, like Harvey, I have done OK in developing new talent, and I still try to do so. For instance, Punk magazine developed a lot of photographers. Roberta Bayley, who took an amazing photo of the Ramones for Punk magazine, and photos from that shoot became their iconic first LP cover. Roberta is now an internationally renowned fine art photographer. And Chris Stein, Blondie’s guitarist, who shot so many amazing pics of Debbie Harry that I was privileged to publish in Punk, and who also attended SVA back in the day.

Then there are the many illustrators: Screaming Mad George, a SVA student from Japan who was in amazing hardcore band, The Mad, and went on to do special effects work on many films such as Society – his masterpiece! – Spaceballs, Big Trouble in Little China, and many others.

When you can successfully create a new print publication – or whatever – and develop new talent, it’s the greatest thing in the world. And I like to think that both Will Eisner and Harvey Kurtzman installed those ideas to me: cooperate, don’t compete. “Create a new market” was the biggest takeaway that I got from both of them. And I think I did that, right?

Also, don’t be afraid to take chances. You don’t need a big budget to do things. Self-publish. D.I.Y., don’t wait to be discovered by a big corporation. Like Jerry Rubin, the Yippie leader, said in the 1960s: “Do it!” Yeah, it became a Nike slogan, but really, it’s all about getting your work noticed and out there, outside of corporate culture. It can be hit-or-miss. Yeah, you’re going to screw up and your ideas aren’t always going to work out. It’s OK to make mistakes. Heck, I think Fantagraphics took the same approach, right? They were alternative back in the day.

Any other memorable moments you'd like to share?

Harvey kind of saved my life: In early 1975, after I became homeless, he introduced me to the cartoon editor of Playboy, Michelle Urry, who allowed me to couch surf at her place for a few months until I could get back on my feet. Michelle also set up some meetings – that usually ended in disaster! – with Screw and the National Lampoon. Screw turned me down, but I eventually was able to get some stuff published there. And I was developing a strip for the National Lampoon with Peter Beard, one of the founders, but Beard sold his shares shortly after I met him, then quit the company and gave a “Fuck You!” speech to the staff. You can see more about the Henry Beard incident in the film doc about the NatLamp: Drunk Stoned Brilliant Dead.

I would be nothing without all of the support and help that Harvey – and Michelle and Will – gave me. I am the luckiest person I know to have had so much support from them.

One last thing: I not only became friends with Harvey after school, but I was also able to become friends with his family. Nellie, his youngest daughter, was a “Punk of the Month!” And Liz Kurtzman was our Fashion Editor at Punk magazine from the beginning and she contributed some good stuff! And contrary to rumors, we never had a romantic affair!

Wait, what?

It's a funny story.

I attended a celebration of the School of Visual Arts and their involvement with their graphic novel/cartoon/comic book classes around ten years ago. I think it had something to do with a tribute to Will Eisner. The school published a catalog, and a small annotation gave Batton Lash, Allan Schwartz and me credit for talking Silas Rhodes into bringing Will and Harvey on as teachers.

So there were two events, and SVA set up a bus service to get us from point A to point B. So I get on the bus to get from A to B, and I end up sitting next to Jerry Moriarty, who taught a class about drawing from your imagination, instead of naked people, which is what life drawing classes involve: realism. It was a great freeform class, but I had forgotten that I took it back in the day.

So I'm sitting next to Jerry on the bus. Neither of us remembered each other. And we start talking, and he tells me that “John Holmstrom” had an affair with Harvey's daughter, Liz! I corrected him, of course. Liz and I were great friends but never lovers. She is still a friend I can reach out to if needed, but we aren't in close contact. She was horrified to hear this rumor after I heard it!

And I was a bit bothered. I avoided having affairs with women I worked with. My word, I had so many attractive women working with me: Roberta Bayley, Mary Harron, Pam Brown, etc. I did make the mistake of sleeping with a co-worker once and regretted it ever since. I learned my lesson.

On the other hand, Liz is a very attractive woman and sometimes I wonder...

But it just wasn't kosher.

Best of all, after the first issue of Punk was published, I gave Harvey the cover artwork. I felt like I owed him so much, and figured that if the magazine became successful, well, I wanted him to benefit. Then forgot about it forever.

Adele Kurtzman, Harvey’s widow – a wonderful woman – hired Denis Kitchen to auction off some of Harvey’s art collection several years ago. Denis told me a few years ago that the Punk #1 cover art was the most valuable thing in Harvey’s collection! This blows my mind. Really, since he worked with so many talented, successful, and famous people. Really? My drawing?

Well, it sold at auction for $16,000 – I hope Adele got at least more than half from the auction – and it was featured on an episode of Antiques Roadshow on PBS, where the current owner – Ruben Blades, a renowned Latin musician – displayed it, and it was appraised at $20K. I was so happy to learn that I was able to help Adele. Whenever I visited Harvey, she was always such a gracious hostess.